Writing a book in just 14 years with Scott Killian Love

Scott Killian Love, fantasy author, lawyer and parent, shares a look into the process of writing a trilogy and how life's surprises turn into the greatest inspiration. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Thank you for listening to Paper Girl podcast for creatives around Tulsa. I'm your host, Melody Coulter. I am the co-owner of Metal Market Books in Tulsa, Oklahoma, where we focus a lot on our Oklahoma authors. Today I have one of those Tulsa, Oklahoma authors with us. I'm here with Scott Killian Love. We're talking about Blood on Blank Pages. We're going to talk about his experience writing and then erasing a trilogy, his involvement with the writing community, and uh so much more. So settle in and thanks for coming on to the show, Scott.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This is uh this is my first podcast. So I I don't know what to say at all.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

We are changing lives. Okay, yeah. In the podcast space because I'm so many people's first podcast. Oh, you have today on the shelf at Mano Market Blood on Blank Pages.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

I do, I do. That's uh that has been uh 14 years in the making, and it and luckily it looks like it, you know, like it would it it would uh be a little bit different. It was like, yeah, I spent 14 years writing this book, and it was like 90,000 words, which is you know, like two or three hundred pages.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

Yeah, which is a a pretty normal piece, and people have worked like 10 years on that, but you wrote a whole trilogy.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

I did. I wrote the whole trilogy. So I started when I was 16, and I think I finished the first trilogy. It was much more um kind of picture-like Dungeons and Dragons style, not necessarily in the tone, because I feel like Dungeons and Dragons kind of has a 1980s rock band kind of flair to it. I know, I like I know it's modernized since then, but even like when you look at the movie Dungeons and Dragons, kind of has that like rock and roll style, and mine was still had that like kind of I hope, I hope this is kind of a you know a reach, but like it had that like Tolkien thing to it. Um but yeah, it was way more just like a band of heroes are trying to achieve this goal. And I think I realized pr I I actually I wrote out the whole trilogy. Um and that took me about I think five years. I was probably about uh it's probably like 22 or so. And I so I got to the end, the very end, all of our, you know, my my mom uh dubbed them the Merry Band. And uh so like the Merry Band is in, and you know, there's a uh final scene. He's the the heroes are have accomplished everything, and no nobody died, and no struggles were were had. It was mainly just me writing about fight scenes, and I realized that I just didn't like it, and it didn't it didn't move me, so I decided to delete the whole thing and and start again, and and it kind of um became much more of a political drama. It always was, but I didn't understand enough about politics or like medieval culture or history to really uh portray that in an accurate way. I think that was the main reason why at the end of it all, I I kind of just went, this is not this is not what I set out to write.

SPEAKER_03 3:24

Yeah. So the the primary like the inciting incident of Blood on Blind Pages is this night going to protect an heir that has been hiding in secret. Was that in the original?

SPEAKER_02 3:40

So that was that was in as far back as the original, that was in the original book um that I wrote, which was at that time called King's Blood. Um I kind of always had also a good name. Well, thank you. Uh it there were I think it was like it was semi-taken. Uh there was something called the King's Blood, why for I forget, but it was like, and it it was um it it was just too close to that. And uh and also that was another fantasy thing, so it wasn't even like you know, sometimes you get books um that are the same title, but they are so different in genre, like how could anyone ever be confused? But when you have King's Blood and The King's Blood and they're both fantasy novels, yeah, one article's not enough to separate it. Exactly, yeah, exactly, exactly. So um, and then um I I had the opportunity to talk to um Andy Dewar about uh book titles. Um I was a student at um that TU uh in the law school, and our uh our dean was just so happened to be talking to the author, and she knew I was writing a book. Um she would, you know, when I was supposed to be studying for uh law, I was I was writing in my book. Um and so she she knew that and she pulled me in. Basically, she pulled me by the ear, you know, like I was not gonna, I was like hovering weirdly, you know, I probably look like a middle schooler getting ready to try and like ask his, you know, ask the girl the the middle school dance or something. But um we I I ended up talking to Anthony Doer, great guy, talked to him about titles because the title of his very famous book is uh All the Light We Cannot See. And so I was asking him, what um you know, what what makes a good title? Why why did you pick your title? And he said, your title need the title of your book needs to hit on at least, at least three different uh levels. So it needs to hit on a plot level, it needs to hit on a thematic level, and it needs to hit on a character level. And and that's like bare minimum. And if it doesn't do that, then you've kind of just feel yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:11

My title does, and I didn't have that free work. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

It needs to have a resonance with all three, and and it and they can't be the same resonance either. Like, um, so all the light we cannot see. That is a book about World War II, and it revolves mainly around the invention of the radio. It also follows a girl who is blind, so that's pretty self-evident that one, it's about the radio waves, so that's light. Radio is wave, light waves that we cannot, it's not light, but it's radiation that we cannot see. Boom, all light we cannot see. That's your plot. Then you have your character, and that's the the blind girl, and she's blind, so she can't see. Boom, another one, and then it's takes place in World War II. That's like your setting, um, your your themes of um darkness and despair, and when will this war end, and the the struggle and the death and everything that we all kind of instinctually know it comes with war. And so it hits on all three. It hits on the plot, it hits on the character, and it hits on on the theme. So it's just like that was the perfect title. And it hits in in more ways, but that you know, uh, can't I can overexplain that. Um, so that's when I kind of realized um that my title needed work because it's very much like I had the plot, King's Blood. It's about a secret error, right? And I to an extent, I to an extent I it was a part of the magic, you know, like the the magic is very, it's blood magic, basically. Um and so it it a little bit hit on on that end, but at the time, like that was it, you know. So I that's when I kind of knew and I started to think of new titles, and actually I can't uh believe it, but it was my fiance who came up with the the the current title that I have, blow on a blank pages. So and yeah, that that one hits. I mean, I could talk about that all day. That hits on uh so many levels, and I'm I'm proud of that.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

Yeah. Can you give like a like a one sentence? I'd say like a challenge on the fly, a one sentence on how it hits.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

Okay, okay. So no, I've got I I've got I can talk for a million years about about like great pitch that um I didn't actually mean to send you that video, but I'm glad you did of when you were talking to uh somebody, uh a customer at the I didn't even watch the video when I posted it because I was like, I'm I can't listen to my own voice, so I just literally hit hit post. But yeah, apparently it was me talking about my book, which I was like, once again, that's like hits on double, like two layers where it was like, oh, it's my voice and it's me talking about my book trying to sell it. So I was like, not gonna even review that. Uh hopefully I hopefully I don't say anything cancelable in this one, and I just posted it. So yeah. Um, but the uh the title, so my um my my magic system is based on um three kind of different types, and and it's not three different magic systems. I don't really love the word magic systems.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

It it's useful, but it's like it kind of just saying magic getting to the nuance of how magic works in the world.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Yeah, right. And like first of all, magic system is an oxymoron, kind of. Yeah, you know, because it's like well, the whole point is you don't understand like magic by definition is like once you understand it, it's just right. So then you put system next to it, and it's like, well, wait, now we understand how it works. But the kind of the three, let's say, like the three essences of the magic is uh fire, um, blood, and shadows. So you have the light and the dark, and if you want to make either of those things work, you have to use blood, and that can, you know, depending on what you're trying to do, that's the kind of sacrifice you have to have to make. So um the so my books, I'm writing a trilogy, and I've got the first book is about blood, and the second book will be about flames, and then the third book will be about shadows. So that's like how it how it works there. Um, I also have um the the the gods that the main empire, uh they're called ethereals in my book. Um, and you've got the wolf gods, who are um Phenris and Pharaoh, and they're the the the ethereals of blood. You have the Phoenix, who is the ethereal of light and prophecy, and the uh Kraken, which is the ethereal of shadows and like the abyss and the unknown and all that kind of stuff. So um the reason why blood works is because the ethereals of blood, finished and pharaoh, male-female, the male ethereal is the ethereal of war, and the female is the uh uh pharaoh is the ethereal of sacrifice and kind of like the religious aspect of it. Um so it's said like the the holy book is is called the book of blank pages, and it kind of is a the the book is a list of prophecies um that have been taken for the last 3,000 years as kind of the uh the oracles. Um what am I trying to say? The uh the rite of divinity, you know, like the like I I am blessed by the gods, and I get visions and and um you know I cr do my do my divination and I can tell the future because it's sent down from the phoenix, right? And so the book of blank pages is just all of those prophecies. Now the the book is blank, right? So no one actually gets to read, well, what did you say? You know, that all that history is kind of lost to time unless it's categorized elsewhere. But um, it's said that the the real book, the one that the oracle keeps, is written in Pharaoh's blood. So blood on blank pages is that. And then obviously you still have the the air element about how he is the heir and it's his blood, and he also has king's blood, so that's considered you know more kind of a powerful uh you know his blood would be you could do you could do a lot with his blood. I'm I'm not gonna spoil anything, but like but pay attention, it's important. If you got if you got the king's blood, you know, that's a that's a big deal. So um there's that element, and then obviously there's assassination plots, there's intrigue, there's battle, so all of the the everything you would come to expect, the the the blood is gonna, you know, uh it's gonna run free. So uh it's those are I would say the the core three of what and I everything else I would talk about would be a spoiler. So I'm I'm gonna try my best to not go into all that. Trying to peek into like a a little bit of the of what's to come um on the title structure, or you think you're gonna stay with like a blank on blankety blanks or yeah, so so it's gonna be it's gonna be uh blood and then flames and then shadows, and then we're gonna have some kind of uh preposition word. So on in uh at upon, not really sure which one we're gonna choose yet. Um my my working title for the second one, and and this is a scoop. I don't think I've told anyone this publicly, uh uh uh but uh Flames in Avalon.

SPEAKER_03 14:08

Ooh.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

So that would be that's the that's the title I'm working on right now, or the the book I'm working on right now.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

Yeah. And so having already written a trilogy, are you working with any of that material for book two? Or are you I just like walk through the process of like creating a sequence? Of just like deleting it.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

So, I mean, the original plan was not to delete it. Yeah, to not to delete the whole trilogy. The original plan was let's go back to the first book and see if we can in uh interject some more um politics, some more intrigue. Um that let's do the let's let's have certain scenes instead of just saying, well, that happened, let's go into those scenes and like see how it. And as soon as you do that, you know, now you need these kind of side characters who are the story's not about them, but they are important and they are making decisions. Um, and they're also the thing that was so hard about that is they're making decisions off-screen. And so you've got to be thinking about when would he have made that decision? What spy would he have sent to find that information out? What you know, what's going through that character's mind, all while not writing a single sentence about it, you know, and yet you still have to have it whenever you're whatever you are writing about, whenever that element comes to a head, is to be like, well, this is what was happening the whole time. Like you better been better been categorizing.

SPEAKER_03 15:46

Yeah, you already already know how to do it. And that's why, you know, like writing tools like Scriveter and like, or even just very basic, like I write all my stuff in Google Docs, and so I have like character maps are written out in um in like tabs that I can then access. But yeah, like like the process of keeping all of that like organized, because not only do you already need to know it, you can't just like have it floating in your head because that's a surefire way to lose it.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

Especially when your book is like 272,000 words, you know.

SPEAKER_03 16:19

Yeah, it's a little tight. Um but like you're gonna have to figure out how to exposite that. And and that's like a whole other additional thing that you know a 16-year-old's not thinking about.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Yeah, exactly. And and kind of in a way, it was lucky because I didn't I mean, I if I had tried when I was 16 to do all that, I mean, that would have been an extra four years just to come to the same conclusion that it needed to be deleted. So um, you know, that was that was a I guess a blessing in disguise. But um Okay, yeah. So it was about initially the the the goal was to just write in a little bit more um politics and machinations and intrigue, and then hopefully end up in the same place. But you know, of course, what I what anybody who has tried to even write a book can tell you about that is as soon as you go back three books and you change one sentence from the first part of your book, that is just gonna naturally flow and begin to change things in your other book and and and your other books. And so by the time, probably you know, by the time we hit the halfway point on the first book with all this extra information, you know, the the the pacing's off, the flow is off, the character development's off, you know, and I think that's really why writing books are so hard, is because that one change you know precipitates down. And so it it basically made the rest of the book one nearly nonsensical, and then it made book two and book three almost entirely irrelevant. I mean, there's still gonna be ghosts in there, um, but but yeah, the uh that's that's kind of what I found out, and actually I think I was happy about it too, which I yeah tells me it was it was the right decision because I think you found that you you you could do it.

SPEAKER_03 18:21

Yeah, but now you knew how to do it better, and the fact that it wasn't ending up in the same place meant, yeah, it was it's a move to to rewrite, yeah, and and to tell yourself, like, I'm gonna write a better book than what I had. And so if I was proud and happy about what I had accomplished there, like moving into something greater is only going to serve you better.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

Right, right. And the book, you know, it did the what's the George R. Martin saying that he has, like the the book grew in the in the tell or the tale grew in the telling. Um, and that's definitely what it did. But I was so happy that it did because it just added so much more complexity, I think, to the certainly to the characters that were my perspective characters, um, but also to kind of these side characters who, boy, I mean, in the first trilogy, the side characters were just literally props on a stage. I mean, they were just there to fill space. But now, especially when you add in those uh if you're trying to do kind of more political drama, thinking about okay, this person is a is uh either a knight or a lord or a lady at court, they're not there to like twiddle their thumbs. Everyone there at least believes that they're intelligent and has a plan to achieve something. Now that thing could be totally uninteresting to us, but likely not. And also, uh, you know, even if they are there to chill out and like just relax and enjoy being like a rich person at court, the what I learned in history is like even just maintaining that is is a full-time job in of itself. So there really is no such thing when you're writing a political drama as a side, or there shouldn't be, as a side character who just has no plans at all, you know. And that I think just added so much more complexity and really is what I'm proud of in my book.

SPEAKER_03 20:35

That's so freaking thrilling. Um golly, there's like a thousand things I want to talk about. Go for it, shotgun. You know, when we so we did the signing at the shop, and just like the whole time, I was like, oh man, like I want to chat with you more because I want to know more, but I also like want to save it to feel very like to live the conversation.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

Oh, yeah, no, I can flow and I was thinking about this, like I I just wanted to put as much of myself in the in the series as possible. Um because I that I think that's like the essence of like what it is to be an author. Of course, this is an author of one book, so I'm like not an expert on what the essence of being an author is, but uh to the extent that I like writing, I like expressing myself and putting things that I like into the book. Um so that could be you know what our our our one of the characters is really into brewing beer. Um if he wasn't on an epic adventure to save the kingdom and the world, he'd probably be chilling at his house at his monastery, like just making making some beer and having all of his friends come over and try it, because that's what I like to do. Um I used to work at a Brewery, Neff Brewing, shout out. They don't sponsor me, but uh you know if you guys want to. Um I do my best writing with a little tower next to me. Exactly. Um so so I I I had that. I I had a knowledge about brewing beer, and so that was something that I could put in myself. And and I it wasn't that it's not just like surface level either. The the the the journey of the character, it's the heir who's the beer brewer, but the kind of the journey that I wanted to tell of you know, the heir discovering that he is the heir to this kingdom and that so much responsibility has been thrust on him, um, kind of uh surprisingly so. That was someone who was very near and dear to me because I was uh working at a brewery and I was uh brewing beer with my buddies, and then one day my girlfriend told me that she was pregnant and I was making not enough money to have a baby. And so that precipitated this uh journey to go to law school and to really shift uh my life and how it worked, um, to eventually get to a place that I am right now, which is being able to provide for a family. And that was not like that was in no way an easy road. It was fascinating, but it was totally different to what I was used to, which was like working a very standard nine to five, drinking a few beers uh with my friends on the weekends, and playing probably too much video games. And I think one of the most ironic parts is I was writing a book during that time too, and I'm pretty sure that even though my time, my free time absolutely vanished um during that time, I wrote more. And I I think it was probably because there was more of myself to put into it. Um and so yeah, that the it as it as much as possible, if there's any like authors or trying to be authors, like put yourself into your books because that's really kind of the S that's kind of the whole point.

SPEAKER_03 24:31

I think it's such a like a beautiful case for like getting out and experiencing things too. And yeah, I think I had this conversation a little bit with Dave, talking about the creation of art and like trying to remind yourself that you can't just like hang out at home and just be, you know, on your phone, or you know, as much as I love like TV and movies and even reading, like kind of instead of taking all that time to consume in a silo, go out and do things because the experiences that you have in your life are what color your art. And writing is an art.

SPEAKER_04 25:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:14

And I just find it so fascinating that you turned a book that you wrote as a teenager, a story that began as you were a teenager, has kind of turned a little bit into a fantasy retelling of your journey into fatherhood.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

I kind of like I'm I'm shocked to say that because I I did not, you know, when you set out to write something at 16 and you still see all the different weavings of that, but like the emotion behind it definitely shifted with that. Um so yeah, I I actually I think I wrote in my acknowledgments to my daughter. I was like, I didn't know it at the time, but I was writing this for you. And so yeah, that's uh oh, yeah, oh, oh, that's so precious.

SPEAKER_03 26:00

I've got a nine and a 10-year-old, and and I put them in my acknowledgements because like it's it means the world to me to like they're too young to read my book.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Oh yeah, no, no, no, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:12

But like but they have read the acknowledgements and like the reality that like telling stories, and and I want them to see these kinds of things and know that they're capable of of doing that. And you know, what you've what you've written is not just a story to share with the world, but something that is very personal to you. And I just think it's cool. No one else could have written blood on blank pages because no one else was Scott working at a brewery, finding out that he's about to have a ton more responsibility and then taking on more responsibility in like a really big way. Cause like that's something I wanted to talk about too, was just the fact that you you were writing this and then you you went to law school. Yeah. So I wanted I want to know more about the journey of writing a book while studying law.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

Oh, well, okay. First of all, they're they you know, obviously, everyone knows that like in law school you read anywhere from like a hundred to a hundred and fifty pages every day. So there's tons of reading, but also the like the purpose for which you read and the purpose for which you write are they so different that like I people always ask me, like, how can you go to be a lawyer for eight or nine hours a day and then come home and and and write in your book some more? And I'm like, just it's two entirely different, like your brain doesn't even feel like it's the same brain when you're doing it.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

Really and truly, even it's something that feels adjacent. Like I like I have a master's degree in library science, and going and being a librarian all day, and even though like Clever Woman was born out of a story time that I did for my upper elementary kids.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_03 28:04

Even going and writing that story was so different from anything I was doing all day.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:10

And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

So it's like it it's not like, oh, I I already did my typey types for the day, you know, like it it wouldn't it totally matters like what your headspace is whenever you're whenever you're writing. Even writing different scenes, you know, it doesn't feel like I'm doing more writing. It just feels like, okay, well, this is a new thing I've I've started. I was uh just got done writing a short story uh for an anthology thing that I'm doing. And yeah, I whenever I like jump back in after I finished it to start writing, I was like, am I tired? No, I'm I'm not like I'm not tired at all. Let's keep going.

SPEAKER_03 28:54

Well, because you're like very much like the mechanics of writing a story, like, you know, the worst friend is like, oh, my fingies might get a little bit trust me.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

It's mostly me just sitting there staring at my screen. So my fingers, it's not a they're not tired. Yeah, they're not tired at all. It's mostly just me going like, hmm. I wonder.

SPEAKER_03 29:13

It doesn't exhaust your brain in in as much as people would think it would.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

No, I would say the only time one, I don't have enough time for it to exhaust my brain. I get about 30 minutes of writing done, like sometimes on lunch, if I'm lucky. And then um after work, maybe a little bit, if we've got a babysitter, and then a little bit again, um, as I'm putting uh my daughter down uh for bed, you know, kind of stay with her and kind of rub her back and also like type with one hand. Um so those are like my three times a day, if I'm lucky, that I get to that I get to do that. So it's never really a matter, it's never that's never been something that I've dealt with. There was one time during spring break, I was I didn't go anywhere. It was during law school, and I probably should have been studying, but instead, I think my daughter was off to her grandparents for for the week or something, and I did so I did eight hours a day. Oh like I got the like the full like this is what it's like to be a full-time author. You do you get up and you this is your job for the and you know, I I uh edited the last whatever it was, 150 pages of my book that week. And that was that was the first time ever I was like, oh, I could see how this would be exhausting, you know. I could I get it now, but I never I never actually got that feeling. I was just like a little glimpse into like, oh, if it was every week, always like this, I can begin to see it.

SPEAKER_03 30:59

Sometimes I'm like, oh, I'm supposed to be a full-time writer. Um and then like hearing other people express that feeling about it, because like now I have almost the opportunity, right? Like I'm hanging out in the bookstore all day.

SPEAKER_04 31:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:16

And it feels almost like anytime that I it's like a secret money-making hack. Try to write your book while running your store, which is what you depend on for income.

SPEAKER_04 31:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

Um, and people will flock to flock in. Yeah. You'll be so busy that you won't write a word.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Yeah. Um that's why I always bring my laptop to book signings into like like.

SPEAKER_03 31:38

Yeah, you're like, as soon as I as soon as you go to do it.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Oh, there's a line. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

Yeah, oh my gosh, I will sign you good. Yeah. I just over here like trying to write, but it's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Um but like the the idea of like not doing it full time almost makes it feel like a treat, which makes it feel more joyful. I'm not writing because I have to, because this is because this is my full-time thing. I'm writing because I have a story to tell and I want to tell it, and I've got some time to do it. And like taking the time to write like while I'm hanging out with my kid, or go to a coffee shop and you know, hammer out a few thousand words while I'm eating a cookie, yeah, is it feels so luxurious. And obviously, like being a full-time writer would not be like that.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

No.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

And so there's like a good mix of like it's gonna take a it's gonna take a little longer than somebody who has the ability to write for eight hours a day. But yeah, I still love doing it years after years later.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

That's the thing for me. Like I love uh being a lawyer. I am just, you know, I'm I'm a new lawyer, so I'm just now starting to kind of see the see the schedule, see the the, you know, working with clients, um, working on cases. Um but I where was I going with that? Um the what were we talking about the time that it takes? Or like oh yeah, when you have like two passions. Um that's the that's I think like hold on, hold on, hold on. Before I just start giving opinions, I don't really think. Um so I've got I I have two two passions in that I love being a lawyer and I love being an author. And so would I like to be a full-time author and go like the Brandon Sanderson route? I mean, of course, that's like that's like a a dream. But I I also think about one of my other favorite authors, uh John Grisham, and how he was, I think it was not until about like 10 years ago or something that he ended up not taking cases anymore because he loved to do the writing and he loved to do the law. So I think that's really where I'm gonna come down. Obviously, it'd be wonderful to do the eight-hour a day writing thing. Like that would be um fun. But you know, it's always the question. Does your passion become your job, or does your job become your passion? And and then if you start doing your passion as a job, does that make it so that you're now you're doing your passion all the time, or does that just make your passion your job? I don't really know. And I I think it really depends.

SPEAKER_03 34:39

Yeah, and it's trying to find that balance, it's like a big work-life balance kind of vibe. And I think that's what like made the library a little hard for me was that I was very, very passionate about the library to a point where I brought that work on with me. And you know, and it was a passionate like education advocacy too. Yeah. Like, you know, part of the teachers' union and on the bargaining team. And so I was never really letting myself be off. Um, and then that kind of like made it not fun to be there. It also didn't help that like I half the time I wasn't doing my passion, I was doing other stuff. Like admin, yeah, not related to doing library work. Yeah, even like the admin of library work is very enjoyable to me.

SPEAKER_04 35:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 35:30

Um, which is nice because there's a lot of that admin work translates into bookstore. And so I can like do that, but I don't have to like also substitute teach or do lynch duty or call and kids' parents.

unknown 35:48

Right.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

And so yeah, that's that's I'm where I'm hopeful that the joy of running the bookstore will still survive. So now that blood on blank pages is out, you're you're doing the the balancing act that Dave is also in of um parenting, because Dave is a dad.

SPEAKER_02 36:08

Yeah, yeah. I just texted him before I came over here. I was like, how's how's dad life? Has that uh Are you loving it? Are you loving it? Or is it I think it's like was it a week ago? The days run together.

SPEAKER_03 36:18

Yeah, um, I know last Sunday was supposed to be baby day.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Yeah. I I don't think I really realized until we got home from the hospital, like, oh, it just keeps cry oh.

SPEAKER_03 36:32

They do just keep crying.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

They do just keep crying until you do something about it, and then that that's you're max maxing out at three hours maximum. And uh yeah, I think by by day three, so he's he's hit that that that threshold. So he's he's in the full like he's in dad trenches, yeah. I have never been that tired in my whole life, and I didn't realize that you genuinely do, like your brain stops working. I I always thought that was like, oh, well, you're just kind of sleepy. No, no, no. You forget stuff, like you start leaving your keys in the refrigerator kind of stuff, and like literally you And I have bad news, man.

SPEAKER_03 37:15

It doesn't it doesn't no no button? My youngest is nine, and I I legitimately I put the coffee creamer in where we keep our water glasses last week. And then you're like I I stopped as I was like, hold on a second, this isn't right, yeah, and and corrected, but uh right. Maybe that maybe that never leaves, but the parent brain is is brutal. Yeah, yeah. So so you're you're in those trenches of of writing a sequel, marketing book one, and parenting. Um, and so I think I'm it seems to me from just what I've observed, especially about like like we we talk a lot about day and like the writing community, and especially people who are parents like very leaning heavily on the literary community to kind of get that lift. And so kind of walk me through But when you say get that lift, what do you mean get that lift? Like the the the lift of like getting your footing or under yourself for like marketing.

SPEAKER_02 38:17

Well, that that is like feel I mean, it's not unique to me, but it feels unique to me because on top of trying to market the book, I have to also be the best lawyer that I could possibly be. Um so uh really trying to like find that um I don't want to because it's not a balance, it doesn't feel like a balance. It's like literally like yeah, you have to prioritize, obviously, the the thing that's putting uh food on your table first. And so then once you have that like firmly in place where like yes, I am making that my priority in my career, how do I then find the time to carve out little slivers of uh things to do and then also make time for my family, you know? Um, and like I think I do still have friends as well. So there's like if you just want to be Superman, like try to find time for everything. Um, the biggest thing I'm having trouble with right now is I would love to do like more um like how to write content because that's what I consumed for the last 14 years instead of like music or sports. It was just like listening to another YouTube video about like how to make compelling characters. Um and so yeah, trying to trying to find that time is is I mean, it's impossible because you'll never feel like you've made that like you've you've done enough. Um for me, it's the it's the trying to make the how-to videos. Um I really I feel like that's my one thing that I can like really, you know, like no, I I I'm an expert in this, and you kind of like look around, make sure, like I'm I know about this, I'm an expert in that. I'm an I've been doing this for 14 years. You know, you gotta like discard the the the imposter syndrome, but um yeah, the you gotta be I'm this is just what everyone's told me. This is not what I have myself done. You have to be like present making um content, and and it was uh it was uh author, KR House. She said, in order to be rewarded by the algorithm gods, you have to make content that keeps people on the app that they are running, you know? They like that is that is the goal. And it's like maybe like oh that you put it in a gross way. Yeah, it's gross. I don't I don't like social media or like being on it. That's why I'm an author. I like my little like dark corner, and then I like typing on my thing and then having everyone else read it, and they go, Wow, isn't he talented? Like, that's my you like to be on stage, you can do the sage thing. So like that probably makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

Well, but nine times out of ten, I unless I'm paying, like I we pay an improv coach, but I and so whenever he gives feedback, I'm like, I want that feedback when I'm in class, I want feedback. Yeah, but when I'm performing, I only want to hear, wow, you're so talented. So funny. Yeah, good job. And if you have any feedback for me, to file it in the garbage. Yeah, let me put on my headphones. I don't want to hear it. Right. I don't want to hear your criticisms. The only person that that I want to criticize me or provide feedback um is is my improv coach. And only when I have asked him for it, yeah. Other than that, I want him to also say, Wow, you're so talented and funny. Good job.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

Yeah. So, so um, yeah, trying to uh I was gonna say something about not oh yeah, not winning the credit.

SPEAKER_04 42:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

Um like I don't want me to be out there. I feel like yourself, it's so much more personal.

SPEAKER_03 42:09

And I know it's already so daunting because writing a book is already so vulnerable.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Right. And and I know like also kind of I just want to acknowledge that I was like, oh, putting yourself out there gross. And then I like that kind of counteracts my entire point about like putting yourself into your books, but like it's how you know it's it's so different. Like, I I just I if it's you, like I don't know. First of all, I hate the sound of my own voice. I hate my little manual. Like, I'm gonna watch this and be like, oh, what is he doing with his hands the whole time? Has he ever seen hands? You know? Um, but yeah, I I don't I the the doing the videos thing, I think is the most daunting thing about being an author, is like you kind of do sign up to be a content creator at the same time in order to, and that's kind of like slightly an indictment, but at the same time, it is that is like how you get it out there.

SPEAKER_03 43:10

So that is that is the business. And you know, I was talking to somebody, I was talking to another author who came who came by the shop today, and uh she was talking about the struggle of trying to trying to query publishers and um which I've done and yeah, I did a little bit of that too. Yeah, and I was like, you know what, I just want to move on from this book. Like I'm happy I wrote it. I want it out, I want it to be accessible to people. Yeah, but I want to be done with it. Um Right.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

And that was that was uh with this book. I mean, obviously, there's not a agent on the planet who's gonna take a debut like novel that's 272,000 words. There's so many reasons why you should not do a book that this it's this long. I uh I only Did it this way because I had to. Like that was the story that I signed that I wanted to tell, and I signed up to tell, and then that was the result. But there's like just so many mechanical reasons on why. Like literally the the price of the book, uh like the the the size of the book that I did, when you get above 800 words, you have to put in like special spines so that the book doesn't fall out of like the pages don't fall out of the book in in a year and a half. So and and so that like skyrockets your costs, you know. So like just those little things that like had I known, would I have made the same choice? I probably would have because I'm an idiot.

SPEAKER_03 44:42

Um it's it's the story that you want to tell. Yeah. Like that's the and and so all that to say that like you know, we're talking about how difficult it is to break into traditional publishing, um, and how like it feels really yucky to have to go to like, you know, I self-published through Barnes and Noble Press and a lot of folks, you know, even on our shelves, self-published through like Kindle Direct Publishing, and finding these like smaller presses that you can self-publish or independently publish or you know, create your own imprint and and all that. Um that it's really wonderful because it's given us the access to put the story in people's hands.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

You can publish a gigantic book and no one's gonna stop you.

SPEAKER_03 45:31

And and and the only limitation is yourself and and what you're willing to do. Um, but at the same time, it creates so much different work. Because if you go in in a in a fully traditional setting and you have an agent and you have a traditional publisher, and you have the marketing budget that a traditional publisher will put behind what they're trying to sell because that b benefits them, right? You know, that all of that is done for you.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

But at the to an extent, I mean, I think it's kind of changing nowadays, but yeah, it's still definitely if you were to compare the two.

SPEAKER_03 46:08

You've got like a structure for it. And so to, you know, well, and like even in traditional publishing, like they're they're seeking more personality, you know, something that they do. You're not just marketing a book anymore, you're marketing people, and that's like the way things are. And so like there's these like great trade-offs where if you can secure a deal, that's super awesome, and you've got like a little bit of like a team. Um, but when you're independently publishing and if you're trying to make even just make your money back on it, um, you're you're signing up for so much more work and so much more putting yourself out there, yeah. Which is very nerve-wracking.

SPEAKER_02 46:49

Which is like the antithesis of like what I want, I wanted the work to be the thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:53

And then like I did the work, I have to also do more work.

SPEAKER_02 46:57

Yeah, right, right. And it's just like not the kind of work that I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_03 47:01

Like, I'm trying to write book two over here.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

Right. Oh, I know. I like every time I sit down and like press record on the on my phone to try to like make some content, I'm like, this is another paragraph I could have written, you know. But but at the same time, like I recognize that it's important, and I think there's if you can view it as this is an extension of your art, like this is an extension of your creativity. I think that's the best way to like kind of view it mentally, because that's that's what I'm trying to get right now. I'm trying to get as you know focused on that as I am on uh writing, because I've got all these outlines for my for my book. I've got all these character charts and all the I've got a map and I've got my glossary and all these like different things that I have put that that's not writing either, you know? Like outlining and making a map is not writing, and yet I do that freely because it will assist with getting the book done. And just in the same way, so does uh being present online. So unfortunately, like yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:16

Yeah, yeah, that's fine. That's not a battle that I'll undo. We're holding in really close to an hour, but I did want to I've my final question that I ask everybody, but I also wanted to circle back to Blood on Blade Pages because you were telling this really fun story um during during your signing about a soccer coach.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So so the uh the inception for the uh original uh novel um for King's Blood was um when I was about when I was 16, I uh went on a hiking trip that I was not prepared for, both physically and well, maybe physically. I was like a 16-year-old boy. I was I you know, you those you can do it. Invincible. Yeah, you're invincible. But whatever, I was not prepared um for the how much it was gonna rain. I was told, oh, it's in New Mexico, like it's gonna be dry, it's gonna be like the desert. And this was it was in July. So I'm thinking to myself, oh well, done, you know. And so what did it do? It rained the whole time, it was below freezing sometimes. We were, you know, setting up camp on the sides of mountains, so it was just miserable. Um, and people said, like, oh, well, did you at least get to see some fun stuff? Mostly I remember seeing the back of my friend's boots, you know, as I'm walking around the path. Because if you take your eye off the path, you're gonna fall down a mountain. So um, and yet it was like the struggle was inspiring and the mountains were beautiful. Um, and I was, but I, you know, I had my backpack was blistering, my boots were blistering, um, and then like even like the belt buckles or like my belt was like blistering my hips. So it was just like every step was just I would say one out of ten. Um and so, but I was thinking to myself, who could get through this? And the first, for whatever reason, like just so ran, you know, it was kind of like probably like wasn't drinking enough water and was probably like hallucinating a little bit. Um, but I was like, who could get through this? And I for whatever reason, um my sister's my uh sister's middle school soccer coach like popped into my head, and he's like this six foot four uh Nigerian dude, like dreadlocks, he's got like the manliest beard, his you know, his his shoulders are like basketballs, you know, just like big buff in-shape guy. And I was like, he could get through this, and then for whatever reason, like I just started thinking like these little stories of like me, uh, who's you know the the the heir, and then this character, Umelo, who is my sister's soccer coach, um, just like going through the mountains and like doing these little uh these little adventures. And I at the time, you know, it was 2012. So at the time, Skyrim was really big. And so it was kind of uh, you know, Norse like adventure dragons, there's Jarls, and there's these little wars and battles happening, you know, and and so that's kind of where I got the first uh iteration of the land of Joden, these squabbling holds, and uh, you know, Umelo and Dorian going on uh on a uh uh quest for for justice against this uh bad bad guy who burned down uh Dorian's village. So um that that's kind of where all that came from. And then just everything that like all the little adventures that they did kind of spawn these different characters and spawn these now, okay. Well, there's what if there's like a kingdom outside and then you got all these like different politics, and then okay, well, what's the central thing? And it all just kind of it came out, it came out there. And that was the that was the first moment I was like at the end of the trip, I was like, I'm just trying to write some of this stuff down, and I did. So and it was awful, and then I had to delete it all, and then I rewrote the whole thing, and it was pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 52:44

So I love that. The final question that I have for you, I ask everybody, um, what has been the most surprising and or interesting thing for you about becoming an author and and moving into this literary world?

SPEAKER_01 53:05

Oh man.

SPEAKER_02 53:07

Well, it was I it often felt when I first started writing that I was, you know, I I was I I went to uh a Catholic school that you know their focus was largely sports and academics. Um and uh of course, you know, it they there were any other stuff too, but to me, like when you're in high school, everything feels like it's against you. Uh but um and then you know, I went to uh Oklahoma State, which is more known for its engineering program and its agriculture program and its business program than it is like its creative program. And then I you know I went to uh TU law school, which is a very like academic, you can find people that are doing the arts there, but it's you know, it's academic again. Um, brewing is like surprisingly on the engineering side of things, and so like for my whole journey, it really felt like I was kind of the only person who had ever thought to write a book before. Like, legitimately, like I'm surrounded by books, but like for whatever reason, I was like, nope, I'm the only person who's ever tried to do it. And not only did I find that that that was wrong, but like that there's actually people in Tulsa who are writing in my genre, like adult fantasy, epic fantasy. Um, so I got to meet, you know, Dave Lawson. He's been a great friend and mentor um to just kind of figure out, just to get my head around the whole idea of like, okay, you've written a book, now it's time to market it. Um he's been doing that for longer than I have, even though I've been writing a book for longer than he has. Um so yeah, the that was I think the the coolest thing to discover was that there are people who are actually not only in my same like lake, but they're literally in my same rowboat. And we're all, you know, we're trying to trying to make it all together and finding that community has just been uh I don't know that I would be trying as hard to like market my book if I hadn't found that.

SPEAKER_03 55:18

So I love that.

SPEAKER_02 55:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:21

Well, thank you so much for coming onto the pod. Yeah, appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 55:25

This is my first one. We did it. I only I only lost my train of thought like five times. Hey, that's I thought it'd be more. I thought it would be like 10.

SPEAKER_03 55:32

I I'm amazed that we we were we were like, oh, we're just gonna abandon that idea and then we're like, all right, we've got it on there.

SPEAKER_02 55:38

We got I can't we got this honestly, I can't believe we got it.

SPEAKER_03 55:40

It's usually a talent of mine, but like that one had me nervous. Like, did I lose it already? Oh yeah. Lost the skill. Uh thank you for listening to Paper Girl podcast.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03 55:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:53

This has been great. This has just been I'll remember this forever.

SPEAKER_03 55:57

So a treat.